Why Obama's message resonates - Page 2 - Political Forum

Grez · 02-16-2008, 03:55 AM

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Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

All this talk about big government only makes sense coming from three types of people:

* People who own large businesses or corporations
* Gays
* People who want to do drugs

Unless you are one of those people, then the whole "big government" rhetoric is total bullshit, as there is no "big government" telling you what to do, unless you are one of those kinds of people.

If you consider a government mandate telling you that your children must be covered under a health plan, telling you what to do, and you consider that "big government", then that would be different, although still moronic.

Sorry, but implementing a Universal healthcare plan run by the government in which we will never be able to sustain, is considered BIG government to me. An institution that is the most Marxism like ever is considered big government to me.

oldscutlas · 02-16-2008, 07:24 AM

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Originally Posted by LessGovMrPrez

Ok Obama has been in the Senate for 2 years right? Where is the legislation he has introduced that backs up all his claims in his campaign? He already sits in a position that can create "change and hope", yet he has done nothing.

He has alrady been elected to the Senate where the laws are created. Where are his bills he has introduced? You intentionally pass up the fact he has already been ELECTED to make changes, yet has done nothing of the sort.

GEE how about the lobbyist reform bill he wrote and got passed (of course only passed after the republicans filled it full of loopholes so they could still take bribes from lobbyist.)

Perhaps that is what pushed obama into running for president. try his web page by the way for specifics.....it is very comprehensive and detailed

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 02-16-2008, 09:59 AM

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Originally Posted by Grez

Sorry, but implementing a Universal healthcare plan run by the government in which we will never be able to sustain, is considered BIG government to me. An institution that is the most Marxism like ever is considered big government to me.

This is just hyperbole. If you raise taxes 1% more than what they have ever been, then that is "the most Marxism like ever" by this definition. Sheer hyperbole and fear-mongering.

prrriiide · 02-16-2008, 10:42 AM

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Originally Posted by Grez

the most Marxism like ever

Marxist, my ass. You've been listening to the insurance company mouthpieces again, haven't you?

And if you knew what you were talking about, or had even taken the time to visit Obama's web site, you would know that his proposition is NOT run exclusively by the government. There are a few elements of it that are run by the government, namely the safety net, but the vast majority of it relies on private insurance companies. If you have benefits through your employer, it is in all likelihood that for you, nothing will change. Except, of course, the costs will come down...

Wraith · 02-16-2008, 11:09 AM

The biggest reason his message resonates IMO has to do with one of his best political assets. Charisma. Whenever I hear him speak, he brings to mind FDR, JFK, and Reagan. They didn't always make things better, but they could make you believe they would get better. Whenever they spoke, whether you agreed with them or not, you had to pay attention. As to how much of what he's talking about he can deliver on will depend a lot on what the Congress looks like after the election. After all, the president cannot rule by fiat (despite Bushies best efforts to the contrary). If the dem majority is maintained or grows, he should have a decent chance to deliver a good deal. If the repubs take back one or both house, I look for another 4 years of polarized gridlock.

Shiva_TD · 02-16-2008, 12:44 PM

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Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

All this talk about big government only makes sense coming from three types of people:

* People who own large businesses or corporations
* Gays
* People who want to do drugs

"BIG" is a subjective term.

If we are merely addressing the cost to the People then our local, state and federal government is not just BIG, it is HUGE!! Approximately 1/3 of the GDP is consumed by taxation according the the Tax Foundation's calculations. We must always remember that ultimately it is the People that both generate the wealth of America and that pay all taxes. Perhaps its just me but when I realize that 1/3 of all the wealth generated by the People is consumed by government I call that HUGE and not BIG.

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Of course their is another criteria that can be used to define BIG government and that is the Constitution. The Constitution fundamentally defines four things.

First, the Constitution defines the structure and operation of our Fedeeral government.

Second, the Constitution defines what responsibility (powers) that the People, through thier respective State Governments, have assigned to the Federal government. As is noted by the 10th Amendment any powers not delegated to the Federal government by the Constitution are reserved for the States or the People. The responsibilities of the Federal Government are listed as the (17) enumerated powers in Article I Section 8. These are the things that the Federal government has been tasked to do by the States for the mutual benefit of the States and the People.

Third, the Constitution defines specific rights and protections of and for the People.

Fourth. and last, the Constitution provides the means for amendment so that it can adapt over time to the will of the States. Amendments can change any of the aforementioned items and has been used to a greater or lessor extent for that purpose.

So while the term "BIG" may not be totally accurate we could use it based upon the following following criteria.

If the Federal government is NOT fulfilling it's enumerated responsibilities and ensuring the rights and protections of the People then one could rightfully say that it is too SMALL.

If the Federal government is doing MORE than it's enumerated responsibilities and/or is infringing upon the rights and protections of the People then it is too BIG.

And last, if the Federal government is fulfilling its enumerated responsibilities and ensurinG the rights and protections of the People then it is JUST RIGHT.

Based upon this criteria, the Federal Government is TOO BIG.

FRYandBENDER · 02-16-2008, 02:42 PM

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Originally Posted by prrriiide

You "anti-government" types crack me up, you really do.

If you really believe that, why don't you pack up and move to Congo or Darfur? Their lack of government is working famously for them, isn't it? ISN'T IT??? Be sure to have your wife and daughter say hi to the tribal militia while you're there.

Why should I have to move? Oh I get it. I don't like how people are misusing the government to get what they want and growing it to a size it was never meant to be, basically taking the America out of America, and I should move.

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No, the truth is people that say they don't want government mean that they only want government that benefits THEM. Everyone else can go to hell. By your logic, we are all responsible for providing our own roads to and from work, while denying the use of your road to anyone else.

Hilarious. We're discussing Obama, a very liberal democrat. The only thing liberals and democrats do is manipulate the government to benefit one group of people and not others. I really can't believe you even said that.

I want limited government. A government that spends its time dealing with the issues it was designed to deal with. I don't want the government to benefit me any more than it does other people, nor do I want it to benefit others any more than it does me. That is the whole fucking point of wanting a limited government.

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You scream "socialism" at the first hint that the government might try to do something that benefits someone that doesn't have YOUR NAME.

Now wait a minute, you just said that limited government advocates like me are the one's that support government policies that benefit only them. You wasted little time to contradict yourself.

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Here's a dirty little secret, and you can't deny it: roads are socialistic. Police departments are socialistic. The military is socialistic. As are the post office, air traffic control, cell phones, television, and many other things that YOU use every day without a second thought.

And the government is authorized by the constitution to handle these topics. Stealing my money to give it to someone else is not. Paying for everyone's medical expenses is not. I would go through the list of the things that government does that it is was not designed to do, but I don't have all day to type it out.

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It must suck to live a life where you see a socialist behind every tree and a communist in every doorway.

How does my calling one man a socialist imply that I think there is a socialist behind every tree? WTF?

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Here's another dirty little secret: communism and socialism are not the same thing.

No shit. Where did I say otherwise?

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You all have bought into the propaganda spouted by the moneyed peoples that socialism means someone is going to come to your house and take your shit away and give it to someone that just wants to be lazy.

WTF are you talking about? They don't have to come to my house. They just take it out of my paycheck. Fucking Duh.

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You labor under the asinine idea that every person in the US starts with the same advantages and disadvantages as anyone else. That sounds like someone that was born on third base and thinks they hit a triple.

An incorrect assumption..... again. I labor under the asinine idea that I just want to be left the fuck alone. I don't care if someone can't afford this or that. It is not my problem, and in a free society it shouldn't ever become my problem. I should be free to make my choices and everyone else should be free to make theirs. If I make better decisions in life and end up rising above my lower middle class origins then good for me. If others can not, then boo fucking hoo.

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I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it: taxes are the entry fee to a civilized society. And no matter what you think, what you lacked in your upbringing, or what ever, we ALL are responsible for each other. As a human being, it is my responsibility to help out where I can and where my talents and resources allow. I don't pay too much in taxes. I don't like where all of it is being spent, but I don't pay too much. Living in the US and having the Bill of Rights is a bargain at any price.

There is a big difference between paying taxes so that the government can afford to operate the way it is supposed to and taxing every god damned thing we do so that the government can waste it in efforts it was never designed to make.

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we ALL are responsible for each other.

Bull shit. I don't want other people to be responsible for me. I don't need for them to be. I don't see why it is so much of a big deal to be self reliant and not want others to support me and expect for others to not demand that I support them. Just under what fucking pretense and authority do you think you're justified in taking the money that I have traded my time and effort for?
The difference between people like me and people like you and Obama is that I believe that I am only worth what my hard work and determination earns me, while Obama and company believe that people have intrinsic worth despite their out put. I earn my money by trading with people who agree to accept my work in exchange for their money. A freely agreed upon trade in which both parties benefit as a result. I trade my time for someone's money, and they trade their money for my time, voluntarily; kind of like how our economy is supposed to work.... imagine that. Obama and company, supporters of big government, force people through government to give their assets up for no benefit of the person being plundered. The only difference between a government that steals assets from a person to benefit someone else and an all-out thief, is that the thief isn't so much of a chicken shit to act like his actions are noble. The thief acknowledges the fact that he is stealing from someone.

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And where are the people from the uber-socialist countries of Europe and Canada? I don't hear much in the way of bitching that they pay too much in taxes. But I also see what services and policies their governments provide. I don't agree with some of them, but if the fact of government is so onerus, why is the Euro the monetary unit to which international financial markets are pegging their value? How can those countries POSSIBLY be so successful?

Then as you said to me, why don't you move there? Why push the government here to steal my assets when you can go to a country where they not only do that, but the people support them doing it?

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You want to know why the government lies? Because we as a people have almost completely abdicated our role of oversight via the ballot box. We have stopped thinking critically, and allowed others like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Alan Colms, and other pundits tell us what to think. If you think the government is a piece of shit, you and I need to look in the mirror to assign blame for that one. We're the ones that have allowed the government to whore itself in the corporation's bed. The politicians in Washington are only bastards if we allow it.

So far this is the only thing you've said that I agree with. I don't really put the blame on myself because I voted for the candidate whose platform was a return to the constitution and return the government to the size it was designed to be. I will not blame myself. I blame the citizens who know little to nothing about the constitution, take more consideration when voting for an american idol than a president, or vote for the person they believe will impose their beliefs on others. I do not want my beliefs or desires to be pushed on others, nor do I want theirs pushed on me. I do not want other people's money taken from them and used to give me a better life , and I do not want my money taken to benefit others (outside of the government's responsibilities laid out in the constitution- roads, etc).

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You expect the government to be shit, and that's exactly what you get. Start demanding better, and that's exactly what you'll get.

I expect the government to be shit because that IS exactly what I get. I have demanded better, but the mind numbed masses have demanded otherwise. I will continue to demand better and expect the mind numbed masses to continue to demand otherwise.

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Have you bought your mountain in Idaho yet?

Why would I buy a mountain in Idaho?

FRYandBENDER · 02-16-2008, 02:51 PM

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Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

All this talk about big government only makes sense coming from three types of people:

* People who own large businesses or corporations
* Gays
* People who want to do drugs

Unless you are one of those people, then the whole "big government" rhetoric is total bullshit, as there is no "big government" telling you what to do, unless you are one of those kinds of people.

If you consider a government mandate telling you that your children must be covered under a health plan, telling you what to do, and you consider that "big government", then that would be different, although still moronic.

Yeah, it is bullshit for someone who doesn't own a large business or corporation to feel that the businesses and corporations deserve the money they make and not wish to see the government poke their slimy hands into to operations or profit of these corporations.

It is bull shit for a straight person to support the idea that the government should stay the fuck out of people's lives, regardless of their sexual orientation.

And it is also bullshit for a non drug user to believe that what people put into their bodies is their fucking business and not the governments or anyone else's.

God forbid someone want for everyone to have the same level of freedom from the government, regardless of the fact that they're different from you. Yeah, thats a lot of bullshit.

Wraith · 02-16-2008, 02:57 PM

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