Big Brother

I think if you look at what the Republican congress has done over the past few years (in which they have been united under a conservative president) you would see a party that has consistently been more and more conservative ( lets use the war and the tax cuts as examples). Yes the Republicans compromised on the child Health Care thing but only as a minority and most of them voted against it.


Are your going by what the electorate wants or what is the standard in first world countries ? Two different criteria. Yes, the United States is a Conservative country. Then it stands to reason it's congressional members are to the right of center the Republicans being mostly far right. What you call the Left, I would call left leaning Democrats. I have no idea who rates these Senators you talk about. Perhaps you could offer me a link.

The real progressives in the party are represented by a small handful of congressmen, rep Kucinich being perhaps the most visible example. Edwards, the choice of what remained for the progressives, has been eliminated. By my count, that leaves one moderate, and one left of center Democrat; Hillary and Obama.


Bro

Albinonewt

Um, Medicare expansion, federalized education, massive government bloat, campaign finance "reform".

No, this Congress and President have not cooperated to be ultra conservative. The war had overwhelming bi-partisan support and was an extension of a policy put into place by a Democratic president.


I don't have the link off the top of my head, but there are tons of ratings out there done by various interest groups and the like. I hear Google is useful for finding these things.

And I think it's a pretty far stretch to call the country conservative (or liberal by the way). And some of the Republicans are far right. However a large chunk of them really aren't. When the Republicans were building its majority coalition in the 90's it opened up a fairly wide tent that encompassed members like Lincoln Chaffe, Olympia Snow, Arlen Spector, George Voinivich, and John McCain (and others). Each of these folks is generally speaking right of center, but not far right.

Um, Obama is one of the most leftwing members of the Senate (if not the most left wing). Constantly referring to him as a moderate betrays your bias. If he's moderate then Ted Kennedy is a right wing lunatic. (Well, at least the lunatic part is true)

Big Brother

One thing I want to know. If Obama is so Left Wing Radical, why do so many Republicans prefer him over Hillary ? Personality issues ? I doubt it. I think they instinctively know his Senate votes were designed to appeal the Democratic regulars (ie win the nomination). His rhetoric is so empty specifically because he doesn't give a rats about anything besides getting elected.

At any rate, a 'Leftist' would not have such broad appeal to Independents, now would he ?


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Albinonewt

Largely, yes. He didn't coin the phrase "vast right wing conspiracy" or spend a decade locked in opposition with us.

Why not? Reagan won independents, does that mean he was a centrist and not right wing?

But aside from political junkies Obama's positions are largely unknown. I know a lot of peple here object to that statement but it's really true. Most people don't spend all day reading political sites and watching cable news and reviewing voting records. Most people really only know about Obama what they learn in commericials and in a few snippets on the news. And right now that's just not a lot of information. Most of what most people know about Obama is that he's young, attractive, charismatic, and that his rhetoric sounds great. And that's enough, for now.

Big Brother

I think in 1980 the Independents went for a little remembered candidate named John Anderson. Didn't Reagan get the blue collar Democrats ? Many Independents will simply vote for an incumbent ( in 1984) if he hasn't messed up the economy.

Odd when people vote for a candidate based on their credentials as a potential dinner guest, not what they stand for.


Bro

francois60

Maybe they'll vote for McCain. But will they vote for the under ticket? That's the question. I don't think they will. With the big caveat being unless the Republican parties fills all those vacant seats with squishy Republicans like McCain. I suppose that's possible.


Reagan had long coattails. Those Reagan Democrats voted Republican down the ticket.

You may not like it, but McCain represents a new direction for the party. The direction however is one where due to its abandonment of conservatives it either has to accept the fact that it can't win elections or lurch to the left and become a second Demcratic party.

It's not an abandonment of conservatism, it's a retooling. Xenophobia doesn't work, it didn't even work during Reagan's time. Neither does supply side economics. We need to go back to old-style economic conservatism that concentrated on keeping spending down rather than the current "Cut taxes and pray" thing Republicans have been doing for 28 years. We also need to go back to the Big Tent that we had under Reagan. Reagan was certainly a conservative, but he welcomed bipartisanship. Conservatives have been trained to hate bipartisanship ever since Clinton. That needs to change.

There is no way you can compare McCain's position on Iraq to the Democrats. Or McCain's position on spending. Do the Democrats want to cut the corporate tax rate? McCain does.

He may not be everything you want, but he'll be the best you can get in the current political climate. Even Republican voters aren't particularly interested in continuing the current course.

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Albinonewt

The big difference being Reagan was like the guys the under ticket, fairly staunch conservatives. He was the leader of the "Reagan Revolution". Maybe McCain can do that, but so far there are no signs to indicate that he can.

Retooling is the latest euphamism for people that don't want to admit abandonment. Saying "From now on these should be your principals because there the ones I have" is an abandonment.

Yes, I get it, McCain is good on those two topics. Everytime I point out the places where McCain is a apostay you go back to those two issues.

Nope. There is better available. ANd I've got news for the folks in the party that think it's so funny to stick me with McCain despite conservatives deeply held concerns about him. They're gonna feel exactly the same way I do now when they get abandoned on the November election day.

This plan of McCain's supporters to just force the party to nominate a heretic to conservatism and just assume he'll get our support in the general is one that is chancey at best. AND on top of it Rudy Giuliani just demonstrated that that doesn't work. But McCain and his "retooling" is going to try the same thing that Giuliani just tried and failed.

And then in November when McCain is buried all the people that voted for him in the primary despite conservative's objections will blame us for not supporting him and deny any responsibility for nominating him in the first place.

francois60

Retooling is the latest euphamism for people that don't want to admit abandonment. Saying "From now on these should be your principals because there the ones I have" is an abandonment.


I don't think conservatives should abandon their principles, but they do need to rediscover a few, most notably a commitment to small government. That's a retooling the party desperately needs. For the rest, like immigration, it will suffice to just oppose McCain the same way you opposed Bush on the issue.

Yes, I get it, McCain is good on those two topics. Everytime I point out the places where McCain is a apostay you go back to those two issues.


Because you keep on referring to McCain as a Democrat.

Not to mention I believe those are the two issues that define Republicans. I still believe immigration and supply side economics and a few others are side issues for the party. The party has never been united around an approach to those things.

And then in November when McCain is buried all the people that voted for him in the primary despite conservative's objections will blame us for not supporting him and deny any responsibility for nominating him in the first place.


If McCain loses, we do it your way next time. Looking at the likely contenders, you'll probably get exactly what you want.

But right now, we're involved in two wars that were botched, and Bush grew the government by 50%. McCain is the best guy to fix that. When he wins the war and gets government down to a reasonable level, we can get someone who will fix immigration and reduce taxes.

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Albinonewt

That's nothing that conservatives need to do, that's a problem of the Republican party moving away from a conservative position.

On the major issues (except those two) he has been siding with the Democrats.

And John McCain and those principals are going to destroy the party.

The simple fact is the Republican party is a coalition of a few different but similiar groups that tends to elect candidates that are acceptable to all three groups. What you want to do is the same thing that Giuliani supporters and Huckabee supporters have tried to do, which is to hijack the party for a very narrow set of principals and to ignore the rest. It spelled disaster for Giuliani, Huckabee is going nowhere, and McCain will suffer in the general election for catering to only a narrow subset of the base at the expense of the rest.

I know. It's too bad an election has to be thrown for you understand that.

McCain is not going to fix the size of government. He wants to, and he intends to, but his approach to Global Warming and Immigration will be spending black holes.

So, really all a McCain presidency does is increase the chances for a properous Iraq at the expense of American domestic policy. No sale.

francois60

That's nothing that conservatives need to do, that's a problem of the Republican party moving away from a conservative position.


But conservatives enabled that by making excuses for Bush rather than opposing him. We didn't see any serious opposition to Bush until the immigration thing reached the forefront.

Even today, it seems that small government principles are less important to conservatives than social issues.

On the major issues (except those two) he has been siding with the Democrats.


Your idea of major issues is different from mine. I'll also note that on those issues you consider major, the Republican party is divided. That's why I say those issues arne't core Republican issues. If they were, they wouldn't be fighting over them.

The simple fact is the Republican party is a coalition of a few different but similiar groups that tends to elect candidates that are acceptable to all three groups.

You've got it right on. And McCain is a social conservative, he is an economic conservative, and he is most definitely a foreign policy conservative. The issues where he disagrees with the base on are issues that don't comfortably fall into those three categories. Where does McCain-Feingold fit in? How about immigration? You could ding him on his lack of enthusiasm for supply side economics, but that's something that is fairly recent to the party anyway and which large portions of the party never accepted in the first place(it wasn't a Democrat that called it "voodoo economics".

I know. It's too bad an election has to be thrown for you understand that.



Romney would lose by 20 points. No one is buying his change of positions. The Romney that governed Massachusetts could have won over many Democrats and independents. The fire breathing conservative Romney doesn't even convince enough conservatives to vote for him while alienating moderates and liberals.

McCain is the only chance the party has. The republican brand name is hurting. The choices are to lose, or to win with an almost Republican.

McCain is not going to fix the size of government. He wants to, and he intends to, but his approach to Global Warming and Immigration will be spending black holes.


His GW plan does not involve spending taxpayer dollars. It works through regulation, and light regulation at that.

Immigration won't be a problem if McCain doesn't allow them to be eligible for government benefits.

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chicken butt