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Old 02-02-2008, 08:42 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I don't think that you're getting the point. I'm say that if the rich ever really controlled Washington McCain-Feingold would never have passed into law - and it wouldn't have passed into law if people understood Constitutional rights.
Oh, make no mistake. The rich control Washington just as assuredly as you control your dog. But even the tamest dog has occasion to bite.

In looking at the web site I linked above, I discovered a fascinating study on power in the US, who has it, and who controlls it. Spend an evening perusing Dr. Domhoff's web site. It makes you look at corporate-government structure a bit differently. It isn't easy reading, but it is fascinating.

Cal, I think the point I'm trying to make, and I'm sure you'll disagree, is that it really doesn't make any difference how much the very wealthy pay in taxes. It doesn't reduce their standing in the purchasing power pecking order one bit. They are still going to have far more income than 90% of the rest of Americans. In fact, the income of the top 10% outstrips the income of the bottom 60%. Consider: 98% of American households make LESS than $250,000 annually (2005 data). Out of 114,384,000 US households, 112,363,000 made less than $250,000 in 2005. That figure represents a very well-off household, but I wouldn't consider them to be wealthy (at least not by the models we've all come to understand). Someone making $552K annually makes as much in one month as the median US household's annual income. Paying more in taxes isn't going to hurt them one bit. I will stipulate that spending has to be brought under control before anyone's taxes are raised. But the notion that the rich are hurt by higher taxes is preposterous to someone that has to worry about just making ends meet on the rent, food and utilities every month. So someone has to buy a 40-foot cabin cruiser instead of the 60-footer they want.

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Raising taxes on people does have economic repercussions, especially for small business's. 5% higher taxes can be the difference in a small business going bust or never starting up, or it flourishing.
That's why you take the breaks away from Exxon and Wal-Mart (and their ridiculously wealthy CEOs), and put them where they will get the most bang for the buck - in breaks to small businesses and their owners.

Here's a novel tax idea:

How about if the government raised taxes 5%, but then mandated that 50% of your tax liability was to be distributed to whatever educational or charitable organizations you choose? In return, the Fed wold no longer be in the education business except to offer aid for college (which should be universal anyway). In return, there would be no more Federal welfare, except to subsidize health benefits for those absolutely unable to afford their own. The 50% of tax dollars remitted to our fat uncle Sam would go for day-to-day operation of the government, infrastructure, and defense. Let the free market determine which solutions work the best and give much more steering responsibility back to the states and localities where the rubber meets the road.

And about all these earmarks...I have no problem visiting the CitiCorp Museum of the Anvil...if it's a project important enough to earmark OUR money for, it's important enough for a corporation to pony up the largesse for the tax write-off.
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Old 02-03-2008, 08:31 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not a supporter of her or her tax plan in any way. I'm just a realist who has resigned himself to the likelihood of her being our next president.

The reason behind this question was simply damage assessment. I'm trying to figure out how much its going to directly impact me.

I totally agree with your point about raising corporate taxes and the implications. I work for exactly the sort of company that could all too easily relocate to a more tax friendly environment.

At least I won't be directly hit by a tax increase but I will surely pay a different kind of price for the affect her policies will have on business and the economy.
Just by saying how easy it would be for your company to relocate to a more freindly taxless country speaks volumes. Companies that do that should be fined and unable to prosper from their business in this country should they move. Is it fair that they make millions of dollars and not pay their fair share while making there employee's carry the burden. I think it will open the door for many people out there who want to open a business but can't because of the many loopholes corporations have been allowed to make policy. And don't kid yourself into believing that they don't already have companies in other countries where they can pollute the enviroment and pay low wages without being subjected to scrunity. Corporate greed is the reason our economy is in the shape that it is and it's high time something be done about it. I say tax the hell out of them or leave the country.
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Old 02-03-2008, 10:20 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Corporate greed is the reason our economy is in the shape that it is and it's high time something be done about it. I say tax the hell out of them or leave the country.


CEOs are no greedier than anyone else. They are just more successful at it.

In any case, how do you define greed? It's a meaningless thing to say when talking about markets. We all try to make as much money as possible while spending as little as possible.

I mean, during the housing boom, did you give a poor couple a break on the price of your home when you sold it, or did you jack the price up as high as you could and go for that 500% profit margin?
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:30 PM   #24 (permalink)
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In any case, how do you define greed? It's a meaningless thing to say when talking about markets. We all try to make as much money as possible while spending as little as possible.
To borrow from Justice Potter Stewart: I know it when I see it.

I see greed as someone that can't support their lifestyle earning 40 times the national average. CEO's (on average) earn 411 time the aveage worker's salary. If you can't have an opulent lifestyle on 2.4 million a year, and be able to save enough pass that lifestyle on to your kids, you have serious greed problems.
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Old 02-03-2008, 11:07 PM   #25 (permalink)
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To borrow from Justice Potter Stewart: I know it when I see it

In other words, people who are more successful than you.

I see greed as someone that can't support their lifestyle earning 40 times the national average. CEO's (on average) earn 411 time the aveage worker's salary. If you can't have an opulent lifestyle on 2.4 million a year, and be able to save enough pass that lifestyle on to your kids, you have serious greed problems.

I see. So there should be limits no how much one can make?
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:20 AM   #26 (permalink)
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To borrow from Justice Potter Stewart: I know it when I see it

In other words, people who are more successful than you.
Not at all. People that are successful and don't feel the need or duty to give back to those that got them where they are, are greedy.

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I see greed as someone that can't support their lifestyle earning 40 times the national average. CEO's (on average) earn 411 time the aveage worker's salary. If you can't have an opulent lifestyle on 2.4 million a year, and be able to save enough pass that lifestyle on to your kids, you have serious greed problems.

I see. So there should be limits no how much one can make?
That's a stupid, bullshit bait question, and you are better than that. Of course there shouldn't be limits on how much one can make. Just expect to pay more.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:51 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Obama's plan is essentially the same but focuses more on Corporate loop-holes and tax havens,
Loop-holes like tax breaks for hiring new people and training them? For installing new cleaner equipment? For donating to charities?

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Truly, I feel that redistribution of wealth is one of the base principles of creating a land of equal opportunity.
It is one of the basic principles of a communist country, how much opportunity did they afford. It is in the exact opposite of the founding principles of this country.

Why do you believe you have a right to other peoples hard earned money and are willing to throw them in jail if they don't give it to you?

If your neighbor makes more than you do you have a right to go an knock on their door and demand they give it to you else you'll have the sheriff arrest them?
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Taxing the poor is one of the most maniacal and backwards practices any government can engage in,
Which is why the bottom 50% of this country do not pay income taxes and have thier FICA taxes rebated to them.

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and remember that the upper tax bracket used to be taxed upwards of 70%.
With lots more loopholes and tax breaks.

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I don't believe in complete socialism or equal income but i do feel strongly that there is no legitimate reason that the top 10% of Americans live like kings while the bottom 20% live like refugees.
How about they take advantage of the educational opportunities this country offers, work hard and save instead of goofing off, getting involved in crime, getting involved in drugs or believing the government owes you something and you don't have to do anything to take care of yourself?

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Its shameful and its one of the key issues of our time. We are poised to eliminate poverty for good in this country,

Poverty well never be eliminated in this country unless we take away the civil rights of the majority of the people. Are you prepared to do that?
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and for anyone to oppose that is contrary to what America stands for and truly not healthy in forming a sound economy
Actually everything you have stated is contrary to what America stands for, where did you study civics and American history?
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