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Originally Posted by Izzibeth
Having sex and being pregnant are two different things. One can willingly have sex and be forced to carry a baby to term (if this is what is being proposed). They are not one in the same.
So yes, the argument does work.
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Yes they are the same thing. They are no different--they haven't been any different for many centuries before and they still aren't. The reproductive process--sexual reproduction is intended for what? Reproduction--in it's entirety. And on a deeper level it shows the love between a man and woman that they're willing and wanting to share their love with a human child--theirs. Killing the human beings created by that process--completely goes against all moral, scientific, and logical standards of sexual reproduction. Not only that, but it's an admission of irresponsibility and a murderous "decision" to continue down the same path of complete and total idiotic and/or selfish irresponsibility. Once a woman has sex, she knows what could and in all probability will happen--this goes equally for the men involved, but the final "decision" (if you can call the choice to kill or the choice not to kill a "decision") isn't made by them. They made the choice to become pregnant. By
nature's standards, the reproductive process is in motion and should not be altered--especially in such a malicious and
murderous way... You mentioned that there are "plenty" of medical procedures that alter and manipulate nature, but I've never happened upon one that is as atrocious, malicious and murderous even, as abortion. It's a "medical" procedure that's designed to kill human beings... That argument
still doesn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzibeth
You can not force someone to carry a baby to term. And until you can, making it illegal does nothing to curb abortions and only hurts women and babies.
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That's no justification... That's "logic" that drug users use to defend hard drug use. That's "logic" that vandals could use to defend vandalism. That's "logic" that people who drink and drive might use to try and defend their idiotic behavior... That "logic" can be "applied" to any crime, any immoral or appalling act within a society in attempt to defend such appalling and anarchical/selfish actions:
Society can't stop everyone from doing immoral stupid, atrocious and harmful things, so the problem's never going to be fixed--society may as well just roll over and take it, just let it be.
I don't know how many times I've explained this, I don't know how many times Locke's very own Two Treatises of Government--which were used extensively in application for the creation of our very own government--come up in these debates over issues in which people demand selfish desires as rights and demand that the government roll over and give individuals what they want. That's not how this wonderful old nation of ours works. We do not get all our selfish individualistic desires guaranteed as rights--quite the opposite. This is a collectivist nation, not an individualist nation. Society will not roll over and give people the "right" to do drugs just because some criminals won't ever stop, society will not roll over and let people go ahead drinking and driving because some criminals won't ever stop, and society shouldn't let people murder innocent human lives just because some stupid selfish people don't get it and won't ever stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzibeth
Reproduction and, as research is being done, social reasons. They are both important depending on the species. We are finding out more and more about the social implications recreational sex has. It's not just about reproduction anymore.
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Pardon me, but that's a crock of crap. Sex has never been
for social reasons. Sex has never been intended for people to "get off" with each other. It might work that way, and some idiots might take that to the extreme, but that's never been it's purpose. Find me some actual qualified research that explicitly includes "social reasons" as an actual
purpose of sex and then we'll talk about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzibeth
They have made their choice about the sex, yes. Luckily, as this is real life, her choices do not end there. She continues to make choices after she has sex and one of them could very well be to end her pregnancy.
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The choice to kill an innocent human being, justified for no reason other than her own selfish individualistic ideas? So in other words her continued choices could include murder--by definition? Yeah, I suppose if you want to look at it that way. It's appalling, and needs to be changed, but as of now, women can selfishly kill a human being because they don't want it after they created it in the first place... Makes sense huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzibeth
Contrary to popular belief, women are not stupid and do not need to be universally educated about the fact that they have a human being growing inside of them. In fact, some might be surprised to find out that the growing fetus is the first thing on a woman's mind when she finds out she is pregnant and even when and if she decides to end her pregnancy. Because unlike many on the pro-choice side... women are capable of thinking ahead to AFTER the baby is born and whether or not it will have 1) a good life 2) clothing and shelter 3) quality education 4) health care 5) food OR whether the birth of the child will subtract such elements from already living children in her care.
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What do you mean contrary to popular belief? I don't think women are stupid and I don't think it's "popular belief" that women are stupid. I think in the case of this issue, those who are sexually irresponsible and make a terrible decision to end the life of the human being they created because of selfish reasons are stupid, though, yes. However, I think the men who have sex and aren't willing to step up and take care of the child
with the woman and face the consequences alongside her for the decision and choice they
both made are equally stupid. As for your reasons, those can all be solved by other means than playing God over a helpless innocent human being by killing it... Adoption. It's the
humane, moral, and logical alternative and it solves all those "personal" problems without actually killing another human being in the process.