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Old 01-16-2008, 01:10 PM   #41 (permalink)
Aya
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 509
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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
Yes, if our enemies engage in violence to achieve their goals it will be met with violence.
You just can break violence if you answer non-violent.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
How was the Bali bombing tied to the US? Indonesia? The UK?
In the way that the US trained and financed this people and this islamistic ideology has been wanted.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
So your plan is to just hunker down and wait for them to come?
No. You negotiate with them and you don't stop negotiating! All kinds of "soft power"...
And if they don't care and come you capitulate and then you can start with civil defense.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
No I think "we can invade and lose hundreds of thousands of American lives and millions of Japanese lives or we can use the weapon to put an end to it saving those lives and that destruction" Which do you choose?
None.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
And in each case our goal was to make it better,
Not at all. You don't make it better for a country as Iran if you overthrow the democratical elected premier and install a regime.

The only issues are and were money, oil and weapons.
And it had its reasons that they overthrowed Mossadegh...the MI 6 and the CIA. And this reason was oil.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
it can't all be done in one step it takes little steps along the way, a constant proding and pushing.
For shure. The West supports nearly all regimes in the ME. And all of them turned into democracies.

The strategy is wrong and nobody cares if this countries get democracies or not. They have to make their business, nothing else.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
What do you have against the rest of the world having the freedoms and liberties we do?
Nothing. We can live that, it's ok. But it's not ok to lead a war of aggression "because of this". Our governments aren't leading wars because they want freedom and democracy there. They want a pro west government or regime and benefit from it.

And really, what would you say if Iran would come and say: "hey, our values and our system are the best in the world, you have to accede it!"

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
Saddam didn't tell you where they were?
And it's easy to answer why. If he would have told that he hasn't any weapons there would have been a revolt in Iraq. And how many dictators are in favour of this?

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
Nope Saddam did when he invade, again, one of his neighbors and an ally of ours. From that point on he was under a cease fire and served at our pleasure.
Hussein was an "ally".

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
So you admit this war is not about imperialism.
No. The US wanted to democratize Iraq. But not because of the poor oppressed Iraqis. If the US (tries to) democratize another country, there are several reasons why.
1.) Installing a pro west government or a regime
2.) If this is done you get easier to your oil
3.) Iraq is geostrategical not that unimportant-> you want to control the whole ME
4.) You show your might and you are present
5.) The arm industry is very very lucky. They would do everything for war.
6.) The media are lucky

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
Since he had violated the cease fire and all the UN sanctions and the inspectors had reported back he still refused to cooperate.....................what was your plan?
I mentioned it above. Using all kinds of soft power. Or overthrow Hussein. If the US brought him to power you could have overthrown him also.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
It doesn't make it worse.
War is the worst on earth. It combines the worst crimes and that makes it the worst.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
ROFL they are mighty close.
I don't think so. It is hard to compare because we don't have any kind of politics by pacifists.
Appeasement politic means that you appease. You don't put real pressure on your "enemy" and don't negotiate, you just appease. And you let blackmail your own. When did they put pressure on Hitler? When?

A politic of pacifists in such a case would be totally different. You negotiate, you don't stop negotiating. It would mean an unnecessary loss of control. You put diplomatical pressure on your "enemy" and try to force him to stick to treaties. If all of this doesn't help and the other country is going to invade you, you capitulate. You accept the occupation of your country. And if it's real pacifism in the government, you already trained the people what civil defense mean. Now your country is occupied and now you try to get them out with civil defense, civil disobedience, (non violent) national strike and non-violent resistance.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
So we just hunker down and wait for them to come and then count our dead and hope there aren't a lot of them.

Was that your plan for WW2 too?
Civil defense? Yes.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
Not necessarily. Had we used military actions against Hitler early on instead of peaceful ones
The appeasement politic has been consisted of an anticommunist policy as I already said. This was neither soft power nor hard power and had nothing to do with pacifism. They didn't act at all.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
the price would have been far far less in both treasure and lives.
Of the Holocaust probably yes, but not in the war itself.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
So what is the peaceful solution with OBL? What was the peaceful solution with Saddam?
I'm sorry, but what means OBL? The Western countries knew exactly why he didn't deny that he (not) have had weapons.
In this case it was very simple. Iraq wasn't a threat anyways.
You shouldn't have stopped negotiating with him. It didn't mean a threat to us and Iraq didn't attack us so we hadn't any right to attack Iraq (and in my opinion even if there would have been an attack it would have been wrong to beat back).

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
Like in Tinneman Square?
The massacre of Tinneman Square is an example of civil defense which wasn't successful. Civil defense has as military defense some suppositions. The protesters were mainly students, that means that probably not all or the majority of the people supported them. And that's the problem. You need at least a majority and some kind of "strategy".

This doesn't mean that it will fail always. You need some suppositions that it can be successful. For example Mahatma Gandhi, the fall of the Berlin wall etc. there are enough examples where it has worked.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
By one side yes.
You can win a war militarily only. And sometimes not even this (take the war in the Gulf for example). A war is always lost if you look on the side of the humans who are affected on it.

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Originally Posted by VoiceofReason View Post
And that would have stopped Hitler and Japan how? Did civil defense, which was in full force at the time, stop the attack on Pearl Harbor? Was it civil defense that defeated Japan at Midway? Was it civil defense that stopped Hitler at Kursk, the Battle of the Bulge, Africa?
The problem is that civil defense is very "young" and until today not really known. Because of this, nobody trains the people for civil defense. Often civil defense has to be organized very fast, so it can be successful or fail. If it would be trained, you would have much better chances.

So if you take this time it probably wouldn't have worked. As I said civil defense has suppositions also and these suppositions weren't given in this time. But if these suppositions would have been given it would have worked. It's all a question about organization.

Last edited by Aya; 01-16-2008 at 01:22 PM.
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